Blimey, how to choose? I have picked up that Pinnacle may be flaky, but I
assume it works ok with some combinations of h/w, where is a good place to
look, is there a support forum or usenet group so I can see if people are
having issues with similar h/w to mine?

AFAICS there are a stack of 'budget' apps around £50 or less to pick
between, otherwise its up to several hundred for the bigger packages like
Adobe or Vegas, but being s/w I would imagine these might be equally flaky?
Is the Vegas demo worth the download? How restricted is it, I did see that
there might be cheaper versions (are these pukka?) on ebay.

Any comments on how to choose? Use is for something a bit more advanced than
your average home movie (student making films at School and later Uni).

TIA

--
Tumbleweed

Remove theobvious before replying (but no email reply necessary to
newsgroups)

In message , Tumbleweed
writes
Blimey, how to choose? I have picked up that Pinnacle may be flaky, but I
assume it works ok with some combinations of h/w, where is a good place to
look, is there a support forum or usenet group so I can see if people are
having issues with similar h/w to mine?

AFAICS Pinnacle Studio Version 8.10.something is OK, though rather
memory-hungry. If you've got any Version 8 you can upgrade for free.

AFAICS there are a stack of 'budget' apps around £50 or less to pick
between, otherwise its up to several hundred for the bigger packages like
Adobe or Vegas, but being s/w I would imagine these might be equally flaky?

The differences are usually in three areas:

1. The variety and number of transitions and titling options, though
most
provide enough for most people.

2. The resulting quality. Many people might find the quality acceptable
with even the cheapest video editor. The quality depends on the
codec, either built-in or provided as a plug-in. The cheaper video
editors often have crappy codecs giving less that the best quality.

3. The provision of extra features that are provided with the more
expensive video editors like Vegas 4 - but you need to remember
that it takes a lot of work to get on top of these advanced
facilities (especially with Vegas), and they may not ever be
needed.

Is the Vegas demo worth the download? How restricted is it, I did see that
there might be cheaper versions (are these pukka?) on ebay.

Any version of Vegas other than the full version is crippled in several
respects (though still usable). The best way to see is to download the
manual and work through it. It identifies what is available (only) in
the full version. The significant advantages with Vegas though (IMHO)
are twofold:

1.. It will run OK on a fairly minimally specified computer without
problem (the manual gives the minimum specification).

2. Because of the non-destructive way that Vegas operates on
your video (and audio) files, you can (providing you set up
your video folders properly) manage with a relatively small
hard disk. This is especially useful if you do a reasonable
amount of video work. Simply be keeping the VEG files
and deleting the video audio files when you're finished,
you can simple re-load your video and audio back into
the same directory and carry on as though nothing
had happened.

The downside with Vegas 4 is that it takes a lot of learning. You just
can't go dipping here and there into the manual, no matter how much
editing you've done with other video editors. Both terminology and the
way that Vegas operates is different than that with any other video
editor (at least of those that I've used).

Any comments on how to choose? Use is for something a bit more advanced than
your average home movie (student making films at School and later Uni).

My advice would be to start with the free Movie Maker 2 and ensure that
you really do need any extra features. You also have to remember that
few video editors provide DVD burning (except through an "extra"). This
is not a usually a problem unless you want advanced menuing since most
DVD burners come bundled with Nero and/or DVDit. Even Vegas 4 requires
DVD Architect which costs extra (though you can use Nero or DVDit).

I might also add that ISTM that a lot of people get obsessed with video
editing (and all the gizmo features), and fail to address even basic
shooting skills. In respect to this, I'd recommend that if you think
that you're getting serious about your video you should invest in 'Film
Directing Shot by Shot: Visualizing from Concept to Screen' by Steve
Katz at £16 from Amazon.

Having the very best/most expensive video editor in the world won't give
you good movies, but the ability to shoot good footage in the first
place will, irrespective of which video editor you're using. I'm no
expert, but I'm striving to improve my original video, recording
(whenever possible) the "classic" movies that have been directed by the
"greats".

--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info
http://www.rhylonline.com

video Vegas 4 is great, and I recommend trying it

"Tumbleweed" wrote in message
. ..
Blimey, how to choose? I have picked up that Pinnacle may be flaky, but I
assume it works ok with some combinations of h/w, where is a good place to
look, is there a support forum or usenet group so I can see if people are
having issues with similar h/w to mine?

AFAICS there are a stack of 'budget' apps around £50 or less to pick
between, otherwise its up to several hundred for the bigger packages like
Adobe or Vegas, but being s/w I would imagine these might be equally
flaky?
Is the Vegas demo worth the download? How restricted is it, I did see that
there might be cheaper versions (are these pukka?) on ebay.

Any comments on how to choose? Use is for something a bit more advanced
than
your average home movie (student making films at School and later Uni).

TIA

--
Tumbleweed

Remove theobvious before replying (but no email reply necessary to
newsgroups)

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:13:45 GMT, Tony Morgan
allegedly wrote:

2. Because of the non-destructive way that Vegas operates on
your video (and audio) files, you can (providing you set up
your video folders properly) manage with a relatively small
hard disk.

More than once now you have made a point about Vegas not touching the
original video files... but exactly which NLEs have you used that *do*
alter the contents of the original video files? I've used a number of
editors now and have yet to come across this. I want to make sure I avoid
such products in the future!

In message , Dave R
writes
On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:13:45 GMT, Tony Morgan
allegedly wrote:

2. Because of the non-destructive way that Vegas operates on
your video (and audio) files, you can (providing you set up
your video folders properly) manage with a relatively small
hard disk.

More than once now you have made a point about Vegas not touching the
original video files... but exactly which NLEs have you used that *do*
alter the contents of the original video files?

Edit Studio, Pinnacle Studio, Ulead Studio and Movie Maker. Not sure
about Premiere.

I've used a number of
editors now and have yet to come across this. I want to make sure I avoid
such products in the future!

In any of the above, capture your video, save project, note the clip
filesizes, re-load the project, trim the clips, save the project, then
check the clip filesizes against the original sizes.

Alternatively, do the above, delete the video AVI files, then re-capture
and try running the original project.
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info
http://www.rhylonline.com

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:42:40 GMT, Tony Morgan
allegedly wrote:

More than once now you have made a point about Vegas not touching the
original video files... but exactly which NLEs have you used that *do*
alter the contents of the original video files?

Edit Studio, Pinnacle Studio, Ulead Studio and Movie Maker. Not sure
about Premiere.

I've said before, Premiere doesn't alter the original files.

I'm suprised about Edit Studio... I only used it for a short time to try
it out, but I never thought to check my original files. I must remember
to check them later.

On 12 Jan 2004 16:36:14 GMT, Dave R wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:42:40 GMT, Tony Morgan
allegedly wrote:

More than once now you have made a point about Vegas not touching the
original video files... but exactly which NLEs have you used that *do*
alter the contents of the original video files?

Edit Studio, Pinnacle Studio, Ulead Studio and Movie Maker. Not sure
about Premiere.

I've said before, Premiere doesn't alter the original files.

I'm suprised about Edit Studio... I only used it for a short time to try
it out, but I never thought to check my original files. I must remember
to check them later.

Can't see how it could - tried ES4's mark in/out, also trim start and
end. Original left pristine.

Perhaps the OP would say what actions cause ES to mangle the
originals?

--
Please use the corrected version of the address below for replies.
Replies to the header address will be junked, as will mail from
various domains listed at www.scottsonline.org.uk
regards. Mike Scott Harlow Essex England.(unet -a-t- scottsonline.org.uk)

"Mike Scott" wrote in message
...
On 12 Jan 2004 16:36:14 GMT, Dave R wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:42:40 GMT, Tony Morgan
allegedly wrote:

More than once now you have made a point about Vegas not touching the
original video files... but exactly which NLEs have you used that *do*
alter the contents of the original video files?

Edit Studio, Pinnacle Studio, Ulead Studio and Movie Maker. Not sure
about Premiere.

I've said before, Premiere doesn't alter the original files.

I'm suprised about Edit Studio... I only used it for a short time to try
it out, but I never thought to check my original files. I must remember
to check them later.

Can't see how it could - tried ES4's mark in/out, also trim start and
end. Original left pristine.

Perhaps the OP would say what actions cause ES to mangle the
originals?


It would also mean that, if TM is right, you couldn't go back / after a save
/ and extend the marked in or out times for the 'clip' on the timeline - If
someone tries doing that it should prove one way or the other IYSWIM ?

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:02:50 -0000, "Jerry."
wrote:


"Mike Scott" wrote in message
.. .
On 12 Jan 2004 16:36:14 GMT, Dave R wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:42:40 GMT, Tony Morgan
allegedly wrote:

More than once now you have made a point about Vegas not touching the
original video files... but exactly which NLEs have you used that *do*
alter the contents of the original video files?

Edit Studio, Pinnacle Studio, Ulead Studio and Movie Maker. Not sure
about Premiere.

I've said before, Premiere doesn't alter the original files.

I'm suprised about Edit Studio... I only used it for a short time to try
it out, but I never thought to check my original files. I must remember
to check them later.

Can't see how it could - tried ES4's mark in/out, also trim start and
end. Original left pristine.

Perhaps the OP would say what actions cause ES to mangle the
originals?


It would also mean that, if TM is right, you couldn't go back / after a save
/ and extend the marked in or out times for the 'clip' on the timeline - If
someone tries doing that it should prove one way or the other IYSWIM ?


I do; I did; I saw no problem.

I can't see anything in the menus that should affect the originals.
afaik, all the project config data goes in one whopping xml file
(they've not heard of zip it seems :-) ) including source file names,
markers, the lot. No need to alter originals, and nothing I've tried
has done so.

Again, perhaps the OP would enlighten us - perhaps he could avoid a
few nasty accidents!


--
Please use the corrected version of the address below for replies.
Replies to the header address will be junked, as will mail from
various domains listed at www.scottsonline.org.uk
regards. Mike Scott Harlow Essex England.(unet -a-t- scottsonline.org.uk)

Snipped...

In message , Mike Scott
writes
It would also mean that, if TM is right, you couldn't go back / after a save
/ and extend the marked in or out times for the 'clip' on the timeline - If
someone tries doing that it should prove one way or the other IYSWIM ?


I do; I did; I saw no problem.

Umm... I think that what I was trying to say might have been
misunderstood.

Vegas "records" all editing "events" in the VEG file, while *never*
touching the original AVI files that remain on the hard disk as they
were after capture [1].

All references to the AVI files in VEG files use absolute addresses [2],
so you can delete the AVI files and reload them ten years hence, and you
can revisit your project. The original "in and out" times for each clip
are still in the VEG file and can be changed at any time. Saving
obviously will reflect the changes, but you can "Save As" to maintain
and manage versions.

The "marked in and out times" for each and every clip are recorded in
the VEG project file, so that when the project is re-opened (in 10 years
time), the in and out times for all the clips are still there in the VEG
file - and naturally you can change them. You do, however, have to
ensure that the original AVI files (at the original captured file-size)
are restored to the same folder(s).

Some video editors, however, when you save the project, the in and out
times are applied to the source AVI files which are therefore changed
and when the project is saved, the AVI source files are changed. In most
circumstances this isn't an issue providing you don't want the "ends"
that you have discarded.

Anyway, this apart, in response to the original poster I would
discourage anyone from downloading and using the Vegas demo *unless* you
are prepared to (and can afford to) buy the full version. If you can't
you'll be wasting a lot of time climbing the learning curve.

Vegas (IMHO) is the very best, but does take a lot of time learning to
use to take advantage of the advanced features. Without being
derogatory, even Vegas basic operations might take some people some time
to master (in spite of what some people might assert - it did me
anyway).

IMHO 99.9% of folk will find that Edit Studio will provide everything
that they might need. And if "ultimate quality" is an issue, the
optional extra plug-in MPEG codec might be worth going the extra mile
for. For those for whom money is an issue the free Movie Maker is OK.

The user interface of Edit Studio (as well as Pinnacle Studio 8 and MM2)
is far more intuitive IMHO than is that of Vegas.

[1] One of the nice things about Vegas is it's ability to use video,
audio and still files (of most formats) not captured

[2] Absolute addresses are of the form:
C:\video\annswedding\clip01.AVI

Relative addressing are of the form:
clip01.AVI
--
Tony Morgan
http://www.camcord.info
http://www.rhylonline.com