[ One group cut, not available on my posting server ]

I've got two groups missing from my server - but it appears that the message
still propagates out to them if you leave them in the newsgroup list. That
might be dependent on your particular server, though - I'm using NTL's
servers.

So altogether with the video files, slideshows and opening and closing
credits I have about 191 minutes just over 3 hours. This is all at
720x576 (CCIR-601D1) 4:3 in Standard Play mode (5073 kbits/s). Used
space as stated in NVE is 7.30 out of 7.95GB.

The slideshows' effect on the amount of discspace needed will be quite
small - unless they are actually videos made up of still images, in which
case they are not true slideshows but videos. It's semantics, but important.

Yes they are definitely slideshows made up from still images not video
files.

As far as I can tell, a DVD slideshow is a series of navigable single frames
encoded as MPEG I frames, and you can specify the time between frames etc.
So basically you end up with a tiny video file, with the audio taking up
more room. If there are fancy effects like image panning and crossfades,
what you've actually got is a video, and there's no need to distinguish that
from the other video on your DVD.

I do have crossfades between the different photos in the slideshows.
It does seem to be the background music that takes up most of the
space on the slideshows.

If Nero does create slideshows as video, you should make your DVD folder at
the highest acceptable bitrate, then use Nero Recode to get it down to
single layer disc size. Recode will analyse the video to determine where it
can make savings and will yield the best quality for the available space.

I might have to have a look into this. I thought that Nero Recode just
converted to MP4 format which I wouldn't really want to do because the
quality isn't as good, but if it can just recode the original files
and do a better job of that than NVE then I might give it a shot.

If it makes the end product better quality on a single layer disc I'll
give it a go and see if its good enough. I do think though that I will
probably have to get this onto a dual layer disc, or over two single
layer ones.

Rounding everything up to the next minute, I get:
7+35+90+4+5+55 = 196 minutes or 11,760 sec

I had already done the rounding up/down to the nearest minute e.g
the second video file may have been 33 minutes and about 20 secs so I
called that 33 mins, and the third video 1hr 29 was 1hr 28mins 42 secs
etc so I round up to 1hr 29 etc etc. 191 minutes is app what the
length of the project is.

On a DL disc you have 8.5GB which is 68,000,000 kbit
Divide the latter by the former to get a desired average bitrate (audio +
video) of 5780 kbit/s

The Dual layer DVD disc does say 8.5GB but only 7.95GB of that appears
to show up as being usable. Same with the single layer its stated as
capacity 4.7GB but only 4.38 shows as being usable within NVE. Maybe
this is something to do with the 1000 or 1024kb in an mb issue and so
on?

On a SL disc you have 4.7GB which is 37,600,000 kbit
yielding a desired average bitrate (audio + video) of 3190 kbit/s

Well, it shows as only 4.38 as being usable for me in NVE, so I guess
you can't use a full 4.7?

Use AC3 at 225kbit to give average video bitrates of 5556 and 2966 kbit/s
respectively

I will have to see if there is an option for this and see if it does
that.

Considering your source media is stills and DV, I reckon that creating the
VIDEO_TS folder for DL disc and then running it through recode for SL discs
will get rid of your stutter problem and still yield acceptable quality.

The stutter problem was just on my system it is not a problem with the
video files just the performance of my computer.

Note that crossfades on stills are particularly demanding on bandwidth, so
if your slideshow has them, consider replacing them with a different
transition.

Yeah, I have used crossfades. I didn't really like any of the other
transitions, the crossfade was the best one for this project.

As yet, I haven't seen anything to convince me that it's bad media. I'm not
saying that's not the problem, just that it could be a player issue. If it
is bad media, I _do_ think it's likely to be a whole batch (the only time
I've had problems it's been with every disc in a tub. Started a new tub
after a dozen or so failures - problem went away). Have you tried Jerry's
suggestion of different media?

I am about to try that now. I have some Verbatim DL DVD-R.
Unfortunately it doesn't look like you can get these with a printable
surface, you can only get the DL DVD+R as printable. So I will have to
also get some DL +R verbatims to see if the problem was the media I
was using, then if it was I should still be able to use printable DL
+R verbatims, otherwise I am going to have to do it on a branded
DL -R disc

John

Yes they are definitely slideshows made up from still images not video
files.

I maybe didn't explain myself properly - I was talking about the result, not
the ingredients. A "slideshow" is a broad term covering what you're
watching, but on a DVD it has three potential meanings. The first two (still
show and slide show) are where the stills are encoded as individual frames
on to the DVD and the player "manages" the image playback. The third is
where the authoring software encodes the stills as a video, losing some of
the navigational features of a true slideshow but gaining a much nicer look.
Think of menus: A still menu uses a negligible amount of space on the DVD
but can stay onscreen indefinitely. A motion menu has to (eventually) loop
because it is a video asset that takes up space on the disc.

The mention of crossfades later in your post means your slideshows are
actually videos, just like the rest of your media assets, and should be
treated as such (just like motion menus and title sequences).


I do have crossfades between the different photos in the slideshows.
It does seem to be the background music that takes up most of the
space on the slideshows.

Not sure about that one. If you're crossfading, that suggests video, which
would take up more room than the audio. If it really is taking up less room
than the audio, perhaps you're using PCM audio, which could make DVD
playback choppy and unnecessarily use up a whole chunk of space over its
much slimmer AC3 alternative.


I might have to have a look into this. I thought that Nero Recode just
converted to MP4 format which I wouldn't really want to do because the
quality isn't as good, but if it can just recode the original files
and do a better job of that than NVE then I might give it a shot.

If it makes the end product better quality on a single layer disc I'll
give it a go and see if its good enough. I do think though that I will
probably have to get this onto a dual layer disc, or over two single
layer ones.

MPEG-4 will give better quality than MPEG-2 at the same bitrate, but that's
a moot point. What I'm suggesting is to use the first option: "Recode an
entire DVD to DVD". This will definitely result in a quality loss. Whether
it's noticeable is another matter. When it's finished analysing the disc, if
it gives you a %quality less than about 65, the loss will be noticeable.


I had already done the rounding up/down to the nearest minute

Always round up when there's an upper limit on what you're encoding, such as
the amount of space on a DVD or the maximum filesize for YouTube etc.


The Dual layer DVD disc does say 8.5GB but only 7.95GB of that appears
to show up as being usable. Same with the single layer its stated as
capacity 4.7GB but only 4.38 shows as being usable within NVE. Maybe
this is something to do with the 1000 or 1024kb in an mb issue and so
on?

That's exactly the reason. It's a bit stupid of Nero to show capacity in
binary powers (1024) while it refers to bitrate in decimal powers (1000). In
the examples I gave earlier in the thread, everything is in decimal powers.


Well, it shows as only 4.38 as being usable for me in NVE, so I guess
you can't use a full 4.7?

See above


The stutter problem was just on my system it is not a problem with the
video files just the performance of my computer.

Therein lies another possible cause of your playback problems. If your
computer isn't quick enough to keep up with MPEG playback, can it keep up
with the DVD writer? Do the two buffer gauges stay fairly stable at above
80% during writing?


Note that crossfades on stills are particularly demanding on bandwidth, so
if your slideshow has them, consider replacing them with a different
transition.

Yeah, I have used crossfades. I didn't really like any of the other
transitions, the crossfade was the best one for this project.

Agreed they are the best transition - but they are also a curse. Each frame
is, in its entirety, subtly different from the frames either side. MPEG
compression gets most of its saving from simply identifying which blocks of
the picture have moved, and identifying their new position. Where there are
new parts of the picture, there is less compression. Consider, for example,
a left-right pan shot on a tripod. As the camera moves to the right, new
bits of the picture appear on the right side of the screen and the old bits
drop off the left side.The bits in the middle just move to the left. MPEG
works (mostly) by only storing the new picture information on the right. The
bit from the middle is retrieved from an earlier frame, just with a new
position.

Crossfades bugger all that up because there are no common chunks of the
picture between frames. A low bitrate crossfade looks awful. A vbr encode at
the same bitrate will look better, but quality elsewhere will be undermined
in favour of the crossfade.

"John" wrote in message
...

snip what Mr Hardy has already covered

I am about to try that now. I have some Verbatim DL DVD-R.
snip

You need to think more about the dye used and not the brand on the
label.

On 1/03/2008, John posted this:

(I snipped a bit to answer just the one remark)

On a SL disc you have 4.7GB which is 37,600,000 kbit
yielding a desired average bitrate (audio + video) of 3190 kbit/s

Well, it shows as only 4.38 as being usable for me in NVE, so I guess
you can't use a full 4.7?
....
John

This is the old 1K = 1000 vs 1K = 1024 thing (and the analogous numbers
for Mega and Giga), mentioned many times on a number of newsgroups in
video and elsewhere.

Hard drive manufacturers use the "ten to the nth" versions of K, M, and
G (and now T), perhaps just to make their drives look bigger.

RAM makers and others use the "two to the nth" versions of K, M, and G
(and now T) because it matches the binary addressing schemes of memory
and other computer-related uses.

So, K = ten cubed for drive makers and K = two to the tenth for RAM
makers, and so forth.

Do the calculation for yourself and you'll see that 4.38 times 2**30 is
approximately 4.7 times 10**9 ("**" is the symbol for exponentiation -
raising to a power - in a number of computer languages).

--
Gene E. Bloch (Gino) letters617blochg3251
(replace the numbers by "at" and "dotcom")

On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:20:10 GMT, "G Hardy"
wrote:

Yes they are definitely slideshows made up from still images not video
files.

I maybe didn't explain myself properly - I was talking about the result, not
the ingredients. A "slideshow" is a broad term covering what you're
watching, but on a DVD it has three potential meanings. The first two (still
show and slide show) are where the stills are encoded as individual frames
on to the DVD and the player "manages" the image playback. The third is
where the authoring software encodes the stills as a video, losing some of
the navigational features of a true slideshow but gaining a much nicer look.
Think of menus: A still menu uses a negligible amount of space on the DVD
but can stay onscreen indefinitely. A motion menu has to (eventually) loop
because it is a video asset that takes up space on the disc.

The mention of crossfades later in your post means your slideshows are
actually videos, just like the rest of your media assets, and should be
treated as such (just like motion menus and title sequences).


I do have crossfades between the different photos in the slideshows.
It does seem to be the background music that takes up most of the
space on the slideshows.

Not sure about that one. If you're crossfading, that suggests video, which
would take up more room than the audio. If it really is taking up less room
than the audio, perhaps you're using PCM audio, which could make DVD
playback choppy and unnecessarily use up a whole chunk of space over its
much slimmer AC3 alternative.


I might have to have a look into this. I thought that Nero Recode just
converted to MP4 format which I wouldn't really want to do because the
quality isn't as good, but if it can just recode the original files
and do a better job of that than NVE then I might give it a shot.

If it makes the end product better quality on a single layer disc I'll
give it a go and see if its good enough. I do think though that I will
probably have to get this onto a dual layer disc, or over two single
layer ones.

MPEG-4 will give better quality than MPEG-2 at the same bitrate, but that's
a moot point. What I'm suggesting is to use the first option: "Recode an
entire DVD to DVD". This will definitely result in a quality loss. Whether
it's noticeable is another matter. When it's finished analysing the disc, if
it gives you a %quality less than about 65, the loss will be noticeable.


I had already done the rounding up/down to the nearest minute

Always round up when there's an upper limit on what you're encoding, such as
the amount of space on a DVD or the maximum filesize for YouTube etc.


The Dual layer DVD disc does say 8.5GB but only 7.95GB of that appears
to show up as being usable. Same with the single layer its stated as
capacity 4.7GB but only 4.38 shows as being usable within NVE. Maybe
this is something to do with the 1000 or 1024kb in an mb issue and so
on?

That's exactly the reason. It's a bit stupid of Nero to show capacity in
binary powers (1024) while it refers to bitrate in decimal powers (1000). In
the examples I gave earlier in the thread, everything is in decimal powers.


Well, it shows as only 4.38 as being usable for me in NVE, so I guess
you can't use a full 4.7?

See above


The stutter problem was just on my system it is not a problem with the
video files just the performance of my computer.

Therein lies another possible cause of your playback problems. If your
computer isn't quick enough to keep up with MPEG playback, can it keep up
with the DVD writer? Do the two buffer gauges stay fairly stable at above
80% during writing?


Note that crossfades on stills are particularly demanding on bandwidth, so
if your slideshow has them, consider replacing them with a different
transition.

Yeah, I have used crossfades. I didn't really like any of the other
transitions, the crossfade was the best one for this project.

Agreed they are the best transition - but they are also a curse. Each frame
is, in its entirety, subtly different from the frames either side. MPEG
compression gets most of its saving from simply identifying which blocks of
the picture have moved, and identifying their new position. Where there are
new parts of the picture, there is less compression. Consider, for example,
a left-right pan shot on a tripod. As the camera moves to the right, new
bits of the picture appear on the right side of the screen and the old bits
drop off the left side.The bits in the middle just move to the left. MPEG
works (mostly) by only storing the new picture information on the right. The
bit from the middle is retrieved from an earlier frame, just with a new
position.

Crossfades bugger all that up because there are no common chunks of the
picture between frames. A low bitrate crossfade looks awful. A vbr encode at
the same bitrate will look better, but quality elsewhere will be undermined
in favour of the crossfade.

Update....

I managed to bump up the bit rate a little to 5500 and still get it to
fit on dual layer. I re-encoded the files to Hard Drive and burned to
a Verbatim DVD-R DL disc.

It plays back absolutely fine on my PC in the drive that made it
(Pioneer DVR-109), using both Windows Media Player and Nero Showtime.
However, it doesn't play back on another PC I have in that DVD drive,
and also on stand alone player attached to TV it gets to a certain
point in the main movie on the dvd and it stops working. The DVD
player makes a load of crazy spinning noises and doesn't seem to
recognise the disc anymore. If I try and select a title after the bad
bit it doesn't let me. It wont read the disc after a certain point.

It looks like if I want this to be readable in other drives then I'm
afraid dual media is a no go whether your drive supports it or not.
I'll have to fit it on a single layer disc and suffer the quality loss
or try and span it over 2 single layer DVD discs and all the problems
that will entail trying to split that.

John

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:49:10 -0000, ":Jerry:"
wrote:


"John" wrote in message
.. .

snip what Mr Hardy has already covered

I am about to try that now. I have some Verbatim DL DVD-R.
snip

You need to think more about the dye used and not the brand on the
label.

What type of dye would you recommend?

So far I have tried:

RICOHJPN D01 067 (Aone 8x DVD+R DL)
MKM 01RD30 (Verbatim 4x DVD-R DL)

What do I try next? Taiyo Yuden? Do they even make Dual Layer
media? Maybe they're not stupid enough to?

I have to bare in mind that my system seems to get on better with
DVD-R DL than +R DL. These ones at least are readable on my system no
problems if not many other places.

I would be interested to know of any other people in this newsgroup
who has had sucess burning video to dual layer DVD and has had no
problems playing that back in a variety of drives and players. Would
love to know what type of discs you used and what software you used as
well to encode and burn it and also what burner you have. So far I
just think that DVD players and drives don't like any blank dual layer
discs that have been burned. They seem to only like the professional
hollywood movies in this dual layer format.

Maybe when Blu Ray burners come down in price I'll finally have a
format I can burn my project onto in full quality without any
problems?

Cheers

John

I am in the process of using Nero Recode to shrink my dual layer
project down to DVD-5 size. It's sucked all the Video_TS folder in and
wants to reduce the menus to 63% quality. Main movie to 81% quality.
And the rest of the titles (26 of them!) some of these VERY VERY LOW!
One is as low as 15%. The credits and closing titles it has kept
fairly high quality around 50 or 60%, but the rest of my videos and
slideshows (which are also videos?) it is wanting to drastically
reduce the quality average is 31.2%. Can only see what happens I
suppose. Nero Recode though seems to assume that the longest video is
the main movie, and that none of the other titles are also important
some of which may need a higher quality too.

In the fit to target box bottom right there is no option for spanning
this over 2 DVD-5s. It looks like you can only get this option going
via Recode DVDs and Videos to Nero Digital not via the Recode an
Entire DVD to DVD.

Bizarre.

John

What do I try next? Taiyo Yuden? Do they even make Dual Layer
media? Maybe they're not stupid enough to?

Definitely Taiyo Yuden. If you're making a lot of discs (so the extra 10p or
so per disc for TY dye is prohibitive) then use Ritek dye based discs.

Note I bought a batch of Ridisc DVD-R assuming it would be Ritek dye - it
wasn't. It was CMC Magentics dye, which is pants.

Buy from somewhere like SVP, where the ADVDINFO readout is displayed
alongside the rest of the info about the discs. Avoid "lucky dip" packs,
even the ones from SVP, unless it's for short-term projects.


I would be interested to know of any other people in this newsgroup
who has had sucess burning video to dual layer DVD and has had no
problems playing that back in a variety of drives and players.

I gave up on DL fairly early, and haven't really had need to go back to
check compatibility recently. However, we got two new DVD players over the
Christmas period, so I may rip something tough to them (like "The Matrix")
and see how they get on...


Maybe when Blu Ray burners come down in price I'll finally have a
format I can burn my project onto in full quality without any
problems?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technolog..._implodes.html

John wrote:
... It seems really strange this, so I am thinking that either it is just
bad DL media that I am using or maybe Nero has an error when it is
encoding or burning the DVD? Surely though if it is bad DL media I
wouldn't have 4 coasters in a row? The chances of that are quite slim,
you would have at least got one good burn out of four usually even
with a bad bunch of media you have half okay half bad.

John

Just for general info... I have a Mad Dog DVD+-R / +-RW / -RAM drive
(VERY fast throughput drive). I use Verbatim and Maxell Dual-Layer
discs. They work like a champ every time. I get them from Office Max
and Wal-Mart respectively. I'm using MovieFactory to edit/author.

BTW, the Mad Dog drive is what they call "Triple Format", meaning it
takes "DVD-RAM" discs. They're very high speed RW discs made from a new
material that have a 30+ year lifespan. It reads & writes them at 22
Mbps! You can use the drive like a removable hard disc. Cool ! :-)

K