Hello Everyone, My question to the group is again around aspect
ratios. I got some good info last time around, albeit a bit technical
at times - be gentle!

It seems that the DCRHC35E being used (in conjunction with adobe
premier elements 3.0) has a selector that gives me the option to use
16.9 or 4.3 and my tv is a widescreen. I also believe that most future
tv screens will be 16.9 so I want to capture my recordings using this
aspect ratio. My problem is when I select this (16.9) I have black
bands above and below the image displayed on the LCD. This occurs even
though the LCD itself is widescreen. When in playback mode I have
another widescreen option which gives the option of either "letterbox"
or "squeeze". Now I am confused a bit here, does this option solely
affect the playback being watched on the camcorder and presumably a tv
or other monitor, or would this affect my editing abilities as well.
When I switch between "letterbox" and "squeeze" it seems to squash the
display from left to right (horizontaly). It doesnt look right. When
in camera mode or capture mode should I be selecting 16.9 in order to
edit and playback in widescreen? And is this true widescreen? What is
true widescreen? HELP!!!

Does anyone have a sony handycam and do they have any tips or issues
regarding my questions?

kind regards to the group
melianbriggs

"melianbriggs" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello Everyone, My question to the group is again around aspect
ratios. I got some good info last time around, albeit a bit technical
at times - be gentle!

It seems that the DCRHC35E being used (in conjunction with adobe
premier elements 3.0) has a selector that gives me the option to use
16.9 or 4.3 and my tv is a widescreen. I also believe that most future
tv screens will be 16.9 so I want to capture my recordings using this
aspect ratio. My problem is when I select this (16.9) I have black
bands above and below the image displayed on the LCD. This occurs even
though the LCD itself is widescreen. When in playback mode I have
another widescreen option which gives the option of either "letterbox"
or "squeeze". Now I am confused a bit here, does this option solely
affect the playback being watched on the camcorder and presumably a tv
or other monitor, or would this affect my editing abilities as well.
When I switch between "letterbox" and "squeeze" it seems to squash the
display from left to right (horizontaly). It doesnt look right. When
in camera mode or capture mode should I be selecting 16.9 in order to
edit and playback in widescreen? And is this true widescreen? What is
true widescreen? HELP!!!

Does anyone have a sony handycam and do they have any tips or issues
regarding my questions?

kind regards to the group
melianbriggs


True Widescreen means the sensor is large enough to extract a 16:9 image
using 576 lines of video. Earlier 4:3 camcorders allowed you to create 16:9
from a letterbox. i.e only 432 lines.

"John Russell" wrote in message
...

"melianbriggs" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello Everyone, My question to the group is again around aspect
ratios. I got some good info last time around, albeit a bit technical
at times - be gentle!

It seems that the DCRHC35E being used (in conjunction with adobe
premier elements 3.0) has a selector that gives me the option to use
16.9 or 4.3 and my tv is a widescreen. I also believe that most future
tv screens will be 16.9 so I want to capture my recordings using this
aspect ratio. My problem is when I select this (16.9) I have black
bands above and below the image displayed on the LCD. This occurs even
though the LCD itself is widescreen. When in playback mode I have
another widescreen option which gives the option of either "letterbox"
or "squeeze". Now I am confused a bit here, does this option solely
affect the playback being watched on the camcorder and presumably a tv
or other monitor, or would this affect my editing abilities as well.
When I switch between "letterbox" and "squeeze" it seems to squash the
display from left to right (horizontaly). It doesnt look right. When
in camera mode or capture mode should I be selecting 16.9 in order to
edit and playback in widescreen? And is this true widescreen? What is
true widescreen? HELP!!!

Does anyone have a sony handycam and do they have any tips or issues
regarding my questions?

kind regards to the group
melianbriggs


True Widescreen means the sensor is large enough to extract a 16:9 image
using 576 lines of video. Earlier 4:3 camcorders allowed you to create
16:9 from a letterbox. i.e only 432 lines.

P.S. The 35e is a 4:3 camcorder. The LCD is 4:3. When you select Wide it has
to use letterbox.
Sony viewfinders are 4:3. Therefore you select to show wide either as
letterbox, or stretched vertically.

"John Russell" wrote in message
...

"John Russell" wrote in message
...

"melianbriggs" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello Everyone, My question to the group is again around aspect
ratios. I got some good info last time around, albeit a bit technical
at times - be gentle!

It seems that the DCRHC35E being used (in conjunction with adobe
premier elements 3.0) has a selector that gives me the option to use
16.9 or 4.3 and my tv is a widescreen. I also believe that most future
tv screens will be 16.9 so I want to capture my recordings using this
aspect ratio. My problem is when I select this (16.9) I have black
bands above and below the image displayed on the LCD. This occurs even
though the LCD itself is widescreen. When in playback mode I have
another widescreen option which gives the option of either "letterbox"
or "squeeze". Now I am confused a bit here, does this option solely
affect the playback being watched on the camcorder and presumably a tv
or other monitor, or would this affect my editing abilities as well.
When I switch between "letterbox" and "squeeze" it seems to squash the
display from left to right (horizontaly). It doesnt look right. When
in camera mode or capture mode should I be selecting 16.9 in order to
edit and playback in widescreen? And is this true widescreen? What is
true widescreen? HELP!!!

Does anyone have a sony handycam and do they have any tips or issues
regarding my questions?

kind regards to the group
melianbriggs


True Widescreen means the sensor is large enough to extract a 16:9 image
using 576 lines of video. Earlier 4:3 camcorders allowed you to create
16:9 from a letterbox. i.e only 432 lines.

P.S. The 35e is a 4:3 camcorder. The LCD is 4:3. When you select Wide it
has to use letterbox.
Sony viewfinders are 4:3. Therefore you select to show wide either as
letterbox, or stretched vertically.

P.P.S
Becuase 4:3 camcorders extract a letterbox to create 16:9 you can leave this
to the PC editing stage. Doing it on the camcorder is convienient for those
who never edit on a PC. On the PC, editing software will allow you to select
what part of the video you extract the 16:9 from. Often the "best" 16:9
would have been slightly above or below the centre.

On Feb 14, 5:42 pm, "John Russell" wrote:
"John Russell" wrote in message

...







"John Russell" wrote in message
...

"melianbriggs" wrote in message
groups.com...
Hello Everyone, My question to the group is again around aspect
ratios. I got some good info last time around, albeit a bit technical
at times - be gentle!

It seems that the DCRHC35E being used (in conjunction with adobe
premier elements 3.0) has a selector that gives me the option to use
16.9 or 4.3 and my tv is a widescreen. I also believe that most future
tv screens will be 16.9 so I want to capture my recordings using this
aspect ratio. My problem is when I select this (16.9) I have black
bands above and below the image displayed on the LCD. This occurs even
though the LCD itself is widescreen. When in playback mode I have
another widescreen option which gives the option of either "letterbox"
or "squeeze". Now I am confused a bit here, does this option solely
affect the playback being watched on the camcorder and presumably a tv
or other monitor, or would this affect my editing abilities as well.
When I switch between "letterbox" and "squeeze" it seems to squash the
display from left to right (horizontaly). It doesnt look right. When
in camera mode or capture mode should I be selecting 16.9 in order to
edit and playback in widescreen? And is this true widescreen? What is
true widescreen? HELP!!!

Does anyone have a sony handycam and do they have any tips or issues
regarding my questions?

kind regards to the group
melianbriggs

True Widescreen means the sensor is large enough to extract a 16:9 image
using 576 lines of video. Earlier 4:3 camcorders allowed you to create
16:9 from a letterbox. i.e only 432 lines.

P.S. The 35e is a 4:3 camcorder. The LCD is 4:3. When you select Wide it
has to use letterbox.
Sony viewfinders are 4:3. Therefore you select to show wide either as
letterbox, or stretched vertically.

P.P.S
Becuase 4:3 camcorders extract a letterbox to create 16:9 you can leave this
to the PC editing stage. Doing it on the camcorder is convienient for those
who never edit on a PC. On the PC, editing software will allow you to select
what part of the video you extract the 16:9 from. Often the "best" 16:9
would have been slightly above or below the centre.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks John, does this mean that the widescreen LCD is sort of "just
for show"? I must admit I haven't had too much opportunity recently to
get to grips with using to camcorder/software etc - which means I have
not had much trial and error going on. If I keep my selections as 4.3
and use the PC to edit in 16.9 will this work if I select 16.9 in
adobe elements 3.0? Is there a "hard and fast" rule here? Do I keep my
mode selections either one or the other as previously mentioned (by
another member) - then just use my TV to select 16.9 and therefore
"stretch" the picture somewhat to give the best playback?

I think I understand most of what you explain and I imagine that my
lack of experience accounts for the remaining areas of confusion. I
would like to say that I appreciate the info and many thanks.

melianbriggs

melianbriggs wrote:

It seems that the DCRHC35E being used (in conjunction with adobe
premier elements 3.0) has a selector that gives me the option to
use 16.9 or 4.3 and my tv is a widescreen. I also believe that
most future tv screens will be 16.9 so I want to capture my
recordings using this aspect ratio. My problem is when I select
this (16.9) I have black bands above and below the image displayed
on the LCD. This occurs even though the LCD itself is widescreen.

Strange.

When in playback mode I have another widescreen option which
gives the option of either "letterbox" or "squeeze". Now I am
confused a bit here, does this option solely affect the
playback being watched on the camcorder and presumably a tv
or other monitor, or would this affect my editing abilities
as well.

Since you can only find that option in playback mode, it probably
affects playback only. Some old 4:3 tv sets cannot squeeze the
full-frame 16:9 (16F16) image to the correct proportions, so the camera
needs to do that for them. That's what the letterbox (16L12) option is
for - it frames the 16:9 image inside a 4:3 frame with black bars. But
if you have a genuine 16:9 set, or a modern 4:3 set that reacts to
widescreen signalling, "squeeze" is probably a better option.

When I switch between "letterbox" and "squeeze" it seems to squash the
display from left to right (horizontaly). It doesnt look right.

Perhaps the tv set does not support line 23 widescreen signalling (WSS),
or it is currently set up in a forced 4:3 mode. Check out the "ZOOM"
button (if it has one) on the remote or the aspect ratio settings in the
menus.

When in camera mode or capture mode should I be selecting 16.9 in
order to edit and playback in widescreen?

If the images shot in 16:9 mode appear to fill the entire frame without
any black bars when captured to a computer, yes.

And is this true widescreen? What is true widescreen? HELP!!!

One definition for "true widescreen" is that the 16:9 image is shot in a
16F16 mode. In other words, when captured to a computer, it fills up the
entire 720×576 pixel frame, without any black bars.

Another definition for "true widescreen" is that the lens and the CCD
chip in the camera can provide enough data/details for filling up the
entire 720×576 pixel frame, without cheating (for example, by
mathematically interpolating a lesser number of pixels over that area,
which is what some low-end camcorders do.)

Does anyone have a sony handycam and do they have any tips or issues
regarding my questions?

You might want to test both modes - the 4:3 mode and the 16:9 mode - by
shooting a printed resolution test card. That's a good way to assess
whether the 16:9 mode is suitable for your needs or if you like the
quality of the 4:3 mode better. See here for more information (click on
the images and read the "Do your own test" section):

http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/respat/

--
znark

"Jukka Aho" wrote in message
.fi...
melianbriggs wrote:

It seems that the DCRHC35E being used (in conjunction with adobe
premier elements 3.0) has a selector that gives me the option to
use 16.9 or 4.3 and my tv is a widescreen. I also believe that
most future tv screens will be 16.9 so I want to capture my
recordings using this aspect ratio. My problem is when I select
this (16.9) I have black bands above and below the image displayed
on the LCD. This occurs even though the LCD itself is widescreen.

Strange.

When in playback mode I have another widescreen option which
gives the option of either "letterbox" or "squeeze". Now I am
confused a bit here, does this option solely affect the
playback being watched on the camcorder and presumably a tv
or other monitor, or would this affect my editing abilities
as well.

Since you can only find that option in playback mode, it probably
affects playback only. Some old 4:3 tv sets cannot squeeze the
full-frame 16:9 (16F16) image to the correct proportions,

I doubt any 4:3 TV set can, although they should be able to disregard
the information outside the standard 4:3 aspect ratio, if the TV has
problems that suggests the fault is with the recoding play-out device
as the implementation of 'WS standard' was done in such a way to make
it totally backwards compatible.

so the camera
needs to do that for them. That's what the letterbox (16L12) option
is for - it frames the 16:9 image inside a 4:3 frame with black
bars. But if you have a genuine 16:9 set, or a modern 4:3 set that
reacts to widescreen signalling, "squeeze" is probably a better
option.

I get the feeling that there is some confusion here as to true 16:9
and masked and zoomed 4:3, my understanding is that any camcorder that
'letterboxes' the image is masking the top and bottom of the image and
zooms to fill the 16:9 aspect on external play-out (the way the
camcorders VF OR LCD displays the image is no pointer as to how the
aspect ratio is being obtained) - this output /should/ then get the
sides lopped off if feed into a 4:3 TV, if your still with me?!...


When I switch between "letterbox" and "squeeze" it seems to squash
the
display from left to right (horizontaly). It doesnt look right.

Perhaps the tv set does not support line 23 widescreen signalling
(WSS), or it is currently set up in a forced 4:3 mode. Check out the
"ZOOM" button (if it has one) on the remote or the aspect ratio
settings in the menus.

Many people have their sets set to 16:9 rather than either 'Auto' or
manually selecting the correct ratio - not always the owners fault,
many warehouse sheds can't set their sales displays up so what does
the average owner know (yes I know they should RTFM....).

:Jerry: wrote:

Some old 4:3 tv sets cannot squeeze the full-frame 16:9 (16F16)
image to the correct proportions,

I doubt any 4:3 TV set can,

I have one (Salora SP55A1, bought in 1998 or so), and I have seen
reports of many others.

although they should be able to disregard the information outside the
standard 4:3 aspect ratio,

They don't usually do it that way. Instead, they reduce the vertical
deflection so that scanlines will be drawn on the screen in a tighter
pattern. This results in a letterboxed image.

as the implementation of 'WS standard' was done in such a way to make
it totally backwards compatible.

If you feed full-frame 16:9 (16F16) pictures to an old 4:3 set that does
not have the above-mentioned functionality it will display tall and thin
people.

so the camera needs to do that for them. That's what the letterbox
(16L12) option is for - it frames the 16:9 image inside a 4:3 frame
with black bars. But if you have a genuine 16:9 set, or a modern 4:3
set that reacts to widescreen signalling, "squeeze" is probably
a better option.

I get the feeling that there is some confusion here as to true 16:9
and masked and zoomed 4:3, my understanding is that any camcorder that
'letterboxes' the image is masking the top and bottom of the
image and zooms to fill the 16:9 aspect on external play-out

I have an old Sony DCR-TRV210E (a Digital 8 camcorder) that allows
switching modes between "16:9" and "4:3".

In "16:9" mode, the camera displays black bars - a letterboxed image -
on the (4:3-shaped) viewfinder and on the (4:3-shaped) LCD screen.
However, it records true 16F16 images on the tape. (That is, the images
that are recorded on the tape fill the entire 720×576 pixel DV frame.
This can be easily checked by capturing the data on the computer via a
Firewire cable - no black bars there.)

In "4:3" mode, the camera displays a full-frame 4:3 image on the
viewfinder and on the LCD screen, and that's what it records on the
tape, too.

Now, this particular camera model still cheats in the widescreen mode by
only using the centremost area of the 4:3-shaped CCD chip for obtaining
the 16:9 images. The chip, of course (this being an old and cheap
camcorder) does not have enough resolution for providing full 576 pixels
in the vertical direction for widescreen images. To cope with that
problem, the image is automatically resampled (stretched, interpolated)
to 576 pixels in-camera, and then recorded in full-frame (16F16) format
on the tape. So, resolution-wise, the camera fakes it, but technically
it still produces "true" 16F16 images.

(the way the camcorders VF OR LCD displays the image is no pointer as
to how the aspect ratio is being obtained) - this output /should/
then get the sides lopped off if feed into a 4:3 TV, if your still
with me?!...

The DCR-TRV210E, at least, does not have a centre cut-out option for
lopping the sides off of a 16:9 image. (IIRC, it does not even have a
letterboxing option for playback.) But it does make use of the line 23
widescreen signalling (WSS) which allows it to tell the tv set if the
material that is being played back is in the 16F16 format.

Many people have their sets set to 16:9 rather than either 'Auto' or
manually selecting the correct ratio - not always the owners fault,
many warehouse sheds can't set their sales displays up so what does
the average owner know (yes I know they should RTFM....).

Some tv sets - quite counter-intuitively, if you ask me - do not follow
the WSS signalling in 'AUTO' mode. Instead, they may reserve the 'AUTO'
label for their built-in black-bar detection heuristics mode. (Which of
course isn't gong to work for discerning genuine 16F16 [full frame 16:9]
signal from genuine 12F12 [full frame 4:3] signal, since neither has
black bars.)

--
znark

"Jukka Aho" wrote in message
. fi...
:Jerry: wrote:

Some old 4:3 tv sets cannot squeeze the full-frame 16:9 (16F16)
image to the correct proportions,

I doubt any 4:3 TV set can,

I have one (Salora SP55A1, bought in 1998 or so), and I have seen
reports of many others.

If it can display a 16F:9 picture than it's not a 4:3 set then, is
it - the tube might be to a 4:3 aspect ratio - the TV set is a WS
switchable though.


although they should be able to disregard the information outside
the standard 4:3 aspect ratio,

They don't usually do it that way. Instead, they reduce the vertical
deflection so that scanlines will be drawn on the screen in a
tighter pattern. This results in a letterboxed image.

as the implementation of 'WS standard' was done in such a way to
make
it totally backwards compatible.

If you feed full-frame 16:9 (16F16) pictures to an old 4:3 set that
does not have the above-mentioned functionality it will display tall
and thin people.

That's simply wrong. If you feed a 16F:9 broadcast signal to a 30 year
old set you see the correct 4:3 ratio picture (as if the broadcast was
4:3) with correctly proportioned people etc. displayed. The standard
for broadcast was for the WS (what ever the aspect used) service to be
backwards compatible, that it is, if you are getting tall thin people
there is something wrong with your set or what it is being feed with.
It's quite possible that some camcorder manufactures, DVD authoring
soft / hardware etc. are not implementing the standard correctly and
are thus breaking the TV!

:Jerry: wrote:

Some old 4:3 tv sets cannot squeeze the full-frame 16:9 (16F16)
image to the correct proportions,

I doubt any 4:3 TV set can,

I have one (Salora SP55A1, bought in 1998 or so), and I have seen
reports of many others.

If it can display a 16F:9 picture than it's not a 4:3 set then, is
it - the tube might be to a 4:3 aspect ratio - the TV set is a WS
switchable though.

I would call a tv set with a 4:3 tube a "4:3 set" regardless of whether
it also supports full frame 16:9 signals or not. (The set was not
advertised with anything "16:9" related
back when I bought it. I did not even know about the switching/squeezing
capability in advance.)

If you feed full-frame 16:9 (16F16) pictures to an old 4:3 set that
does not have the above-mentioned functionality it will display tall
and thin people.

That's simply wrong. If you feed a 16F:9 broadcast signal to a 30 year
old set you see the correct 4:3 ratio picture (as if the broadcast was
4:3) with correctly proportioned people etc. displayed.

That's true for analogue broadcasts because they letterbox the 16F16
material to 16L12 or 14L12 format before broadcasting. It's not true for
16:9 capable video cameras, because they will output the 16F16 signal
"as is". (At least mine does.)

The standard for broadcast was for the WS (what ever the aspect used)
service to be backwards compatible, that it is, if you are getting
tall thin people there is something wrong with your set or what it is
being feed with.

Feeding a 4:3 set 16F16 pictures when the set does not know how to
handle that type of signal results in tall thin people. There's no magic
to it.

It's quite possible that some camcorder manufactures, DVD authoring
soft / hardware etc. are not implementing the standard correctly and
are thus breaking the TV!

DVD players and DVB (Freeview) set-top boxes usually have a menu option
for choosing whether they should letterbox the 16F16 images or not. I
don't need to letterbox anything in advance for my 4:3 telly because it
can handle 16F16 signals and wide-screen signalling all right.

I usually tend not to, since I can - at least theoretically speaking -
get a better picture by letting the TV handle the squeezing, instead of
doing it in an external box and wasting big parts of the active video
signal for the black bars.

--
znark